Search
Topic Cloud
Support Thinking
Information Wealth
-
►
2008
(64)
-
►
October
(9)
- Pictures Worth A Thousand Words - Post 18
- What Really Causes Falling Stars
- Animals Gone Wild: Homosexuality In Animals!
- Is Chocolate That Irresistible?
- The Cost of Open Source Software
- The Onset of the War on Piracy in the World of Des...
- Taking Advantage of Suicide Discount in Real Estat...
- TTB is Back: Bigger, Better, Stronger!
- Nikola Tesla Invents Phone Before Bell Or Meucci
-
►
March
(8)
- Zen and the Art of Golden Temple Maintenance
- Pictures Worth A Thousand Words - Post 16
- The Most Complicated Thing That Humans Have Built ...
- How To Fix the Web With Greasemonkey in 3 Minutes
- The BIG Idea: Social Relations as a Business Model...
- One Idea CAN Change the World
- Search Engine Comic Strips (A New Series?)
- Prostitution: A Problem Beneath Problems
-
►
October
(9)
Investors
Latest Updates
Posts
Comments
Never Miss a Think!
21 thoughts:
Just doing what had to be done.. I hope history doesn't repeat itself this time.
While I am not thrilled with how the war in Iraq is going (that is probably an understatement), it is a big mistake ignore Iran. Iran has been an active sponsor of terrorism since the 1970s. The majority of Iranians are actually pro-U.S., but unfortunately their leaders are not.
That is scary. But I'm sad to say that I am not suprised.
And Fred, I am sorry to have to break it to you, but US has also been an "active sponsor of terrorism" as you call it. And I really dont see why the entire world has to be pro US, is'nt it enough not be Anti?
Well Ilker, you broke your religion rule, and now your politics rule, so now you really can't hold others to them.
More to the point: You are a lot closer to Iraq and Iran (physical distance) than most of us, and you understand more of their culture than most of us, having been raised in similar culture, and likely knowing people from the areas even.
But my perspective is, while the US and allies should *not* make another war (one is enough, and we are already in 2, but we can't just sit on our hands while Iran does what it does to the threat of the world. What should be done? No clue, but inaction will be more dangerous than incorrect action.
But as for Iraq, the mere fact that the nuclear weapons have not been found does not mean Iraq did not have them.
And I personally will admit that yes the US and allies did make many mistakes in how we went about things and what precisely we did, but I have yet to hear a reason to think going into Iraq was one of those mistakes.
In other news, I heard Russia pulled out of Nato, and was caught flying over Northern Canada a few weeks ago, something they haven't done in over 20 years. I don't think they are planning anything (i.e. I don't think they are trying to start/continue trouble), but I think they see the writing on the wall that they had better prepare now before they can't defend themselves. Politicians have been talking for years, Iran and previously Iraq (inclusively) have been defying the world, not just the US. Nuclear trouble is brewing.
Here's a thought. How about the U.S. pull back entirely and take a look at our foreign policy? Maybe if we stopped screwing around with the Middle East to begin with half of them wouldn't detest us so much.
And if you don't have a reason why Iraq was a mistake...well then you probably watch too much Fox News. I think being lied to about there being WMD's was a big one. Oh, and the part where Congress never said "yup go to war", which is, well, illegal under the constitution. No WMD's, no real threat by Saddam, not real reason to go to war, and no congressional backing makes for a not so nice U.S. foreign policy focused on faulty pre-emptive war tactics which our founding fathers would probably be rolling over in their graves about. But, whatever, I guess America has no image to keep. We should just do whatever we want cause we have the power to. *sarcasm*
And yes, the fact that no weapons were found does make the war a mistake. I'm sorry, if you want to convince the American public it was right, you need to produce results. They went in, there was nothing there, and no we're stuck with this big debt building machine that is killing tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi's who did nothing to the U.S., and killing thousands of American soldiers who signed up to protect their country but not to fight in an illegal war brought on by a President who has no respect for his position.
America needs to change it's foreign policy or we will be like all the other great 'empires' and we'll fall. From a country perspective, we are young and arrogant, and if that attitude does not stop then the violence will only get worse. We will never defeat terrorism. Won't happen. Sorry. We can pretend that that fantasy world is real, but it's not. Terrorists will exist no matter what. We take down one organization, another will spring up. We have ever right to defend ourselves, but we don't have the right to take action without the appropriate approval.
I don't think Russia is planning anything either, but they certainly aren't helping the world to trust them when they're flying into UK airspace and such. There's legitimate concern in the UK of air strikes by Russian military. It probably won't happen, but then I'm all the way over here and the UK is 3 seconds away *shrugs*
Justin,
First of, I never broke my no posts about religion rule. If you are talking about my Scientology posts then there is no argument about that. Where I live, Scientology is classified as a global scam cult. End of story.
Second, this is really not a case of breaking the "No politics" rule because there is a fine line between U.S. foreign policy and threat to disturb international peace. I think America is going too war with its World Police moves.
Third, I really thought the general American public was more aware of the situation in Iraq. Invading Iraq was definitely a mistake and here is Dick Cheney's own words from 1994. The fact that it took only 2 weeks to overthrow Saddam's regime is clear enough to show that they had no WMDs let alone nuclear weapons. What's more, Saddam, being a dictator, was probably the best option to keep Sunnis, Shiites and the Kurds not fighting with each other for power.
Now that U.S. is attacking Iran, let me put to you into perspective of the consequences. Invading, or rather trying to invade Iran would be the biggest mistake US would ever make so far. Not only Iran is a non-threatening country to anyone like Iraq but unlike Iraq, Iran is a country founded on culture like Turkey. Iran as a land and a nation has one of the oldest histories in the world, extending nearly 6,000 years. The Iranian Revolution (1979 – 1988) transformed Iran from a monarchy to an Islamic republic. People fought for the country they live in today and 70 million people will not sit still and watch as Americans try to step in their land.
If there is anything that poses real threat to U.S. and that Americans should be scared of - it's NOT in the Middle East. It's in the FAR East: North Korea. They have the 4th largest army in the World, a nuclear weapons program (that is actually TRUE unlike Iraq or Iran), and all this power is under control of one mad man - Kim Jong-il, dictator of North Korea and the "Supreme Commander of the Korean People's Army."
..and here is a quote from Wikipedia worth thinking about: "On October 9, 2006, North Korea conducted its first nuclear test. The blast was smaller than expected and U.S. officials suggested that it may have been an unsuccessful test or a partially successful fizzle. North Korea has previously stated that it has produced nuclear weapons and according to U.S. intelligence and military officials it has produced, or has the capability to produce, up to six or seven such devices." continued "Even though U.S. President George W. Bush had named North Korea as part of an "Axis of Evil" following the September 11, 2001 attacks, U.S. officials stated that the United States was not planning any immediate military action."
Way to go America, FUCK YEAH!!
No but seriously Iran is nothing to be worried about. But North Korea with the World's fourth largest army commanded by the the World's most crazy dictator...now that is something to worry about!
Thanks ilker for this enlightening post and chance to discuss it here.
Oh and for those who are making claims like "Iran has been an active sponsor of terrorism since the 1970s" please quote your sources/refences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-sponsored_terrorism#United_States
If anyone is interested.
Ilker: Scientology is a scam, yes, but so are a reasonable number of *modern* religions. And then there are sub classes of old religions that are scams too. Scientology is a religion, though it is a scam.
This is still politics. Even stating the facts will garner every view, which is politics.
As for Dick Cheney's words, note they are from 1994, when Bill Clinton was the US president, beginning of his second term. Bill Clinton, husband (and puppet of current day presidential candidate hopeful Hillary Clinton) invaded Iraq in more of a flyover than a full invasion. Even Democrats at that time and years prior were saying they had conclusive proof Saddam had WMDs. So the view many now days are spouting "Bush lies" is a lie in and of itself, unless the same is equally true of Clinton, who, btw, was proven by court of law to have lied under oath. Oh, and Clinton never even spoke to Congress about his little escapade. Now, I know this is a slight tangent, as much of the above is not related to what you said.
As for the 2 weeks to overthrow, lack of evidence is not evidence. Similarly, there is no scientific 'evidence' God/Allah exists, but we cannot, and must not declare God/Allah to be a lie simply due to 'lack of (scientific) evidence'. Had Saddam kept the WMDs the US, UK had long reports of Saddam having, plus NATO saying he had [source? well, the finding of the hundreds of missile cases by NATO inspectors prior to the US and ally invasion was so much non-news that there are few if any news articles around. Admittedly the possession of *missile casings capable of carrying biological or nuclear payloads* is not proof of WMDs, but it is proof of capability, thus reasonable doubt, and it is also one of many clear violations of the treaty Saddam and Iraq signed over a decade ago.] WMDs, and it is possible to move them. So no declaration can factually be made that there were *no* WMDS.
So, was invading Iraq a mistake? No, not by the measures given thus far. I have spoken with a soldier, a friend who signed up for the US army just to go to Iraq, and he gives his view that the US did the right thing.
Should the US invade Iran? No, but the world should expect more compliance out of them, or more willingness to prove they are being upfront. Why? It only takes one madman to destroy the world.
On to Kim Jong-il. Yes, he is someone the world should be concerned about. The US is concerned about him. But we are able to keep closer tabs on him as he can't just ship things off at a moment's notice, as South Korea is friendly to the US and allies, and as he isn't sitting right next to Israel. He sits in the middle of the ocean, so it would be quite easy to detect and respond to missile attacks from him, and there would be little fallout as the radiation would be over the ocean primarily.
This isn't to say we should just ignore him, but it is to say he has his disadvantages.
Israel. Yes, lets get to that. Israel was re-founded only 50 years ago, and the middle east has been a bee's hive since, if it wasn't before. Saddam was one to try to throw stones, as is the modern leader of Iran. And they are not alone. And I will acknowledge Israel has thrown a few of their own stones. But if Iran did make WMDs and launch them toward Israel, yes Israel could defend themselves fairly well, it would still be like one fighter against a gang, when none play 'fair'.
So why defend Israel? Well, that is a matter of perspective. If you believe the Bible, Israel has a right to be there, if you believe the Koran, well, it depends on interpretation. If you believe in something else, well, it still depends. But Israel has taken the land and dwelled there for this long, they should be allowed to keep it, regardless of views.
Now, something I have somewhat neglected to address in all of the above: the foreign view of US foreign policy. While appearances are important, and yes the appearances are as many have stated, that still does not mean invading Iraq was a mistake. Ill conceived, poorly planned, poorly supported, yes, mistake, no.
Additions I left out:
UN inspectors, not NATO inspectors.
Also, Congress did not authorize Bush to do what he did? Then why are they still approving budgeting? Why was there a vote before going to war that said "go"? US Congress did vote, and they did bless the war the US embarked on.
There is much to be said - great conversation Ilker. Beyond going into lengthly dicourse on geo-political thoery and history - I would like to insert a funny imagery from the standpoint so "mediocrity vs. excellence" considerer this:
If the 300 Spartans had our leaders in the US instead of King Leonidas the following would have taken place.
Bush (rather than Leonidas) would have ordered the 300 to Thermopolie, once they got there they would have secured the pass and scared the shit out of the Persians.
Then Bush would have ordered 285 of them back to Sparta and made a deal with the Persians to let the 15 remaining ones live until Sparta could sell Greek spears, swords, shields and a host of other products to everyone concerned.
The Persians would have traded silks, rare birds, and belly dancing bimbos to Bush and the wealthy on both sides would have prospered.
Finally, when everyone in Persia and Greece began screaming WTF from the housetops - the Persians would have mashed the remaining 15 and sued for some mutually beneficial peace treaty.
Bush would step down in shame to his home on the Adricatic and someone just like him would take his place (all be it taller) and everyone would be happy - until the next circle jerk (good cop bad cop routine) materialized.
Meanwhile back at home - the no child left behind revolution would have produced a generation of Greeks so fucking stupid and selfish that their only possible useful purpose would be as cannon fodder for the next incursion.
In the larger picture - the elite generation would be romping and playing on the Med ( or Boston in this case) awaiting a time when they will take over the game and line their family pocklets still further only much more easily given their relative socio economic status and secure position at the top. (ever more secrure I might add).
So, while we all stare longingly at the shell game of correct world behavior before us - the carnival man has his henchmen stealing our lives in 100 ways.
Dismal view of reality huh? Ask yourself one question if this sounds like a rediculous rant. What would I do if my group controlled everything on the planet?
Tell the world? give to charity? Set up the perfect form of government? Secure the legacy for decades even centuries to come?
Just some thoughts - Phil
For the most part I would agree there Ilker.
The two places I think that are the most threat are probably Saudi Arabia and North Korea. NK for obvious reasons, and Saudi Arabia for their support of terrorist organizations that have targeted the U.S., and the whole "Bush-Saudi family" friendship bit.
Also, try not to use Wikipedia. In fact, nobody with a brain should even use that site for more than giggling. It's the worst website in history and I'm convinced of it because anyone can change it and while they have bit of monitoring, it's not enough. I don't trust anything that can be changed by anyone. It's about as trustworthy as Fox. I especially don't trust anything that is anti-American that comes from it because most people are only half right about what has gone on and what is going on. There are better places to get information. Wikipedia is just evil.
The Americans live in democracy - but the world is round, with a lot of different cultures and different mentalities.Its an error to think whats good for America, too is good for the rest of the world!
The Haitians are not Americans, they need her own system of tribudemocracy - the Americans failed - too no peace there!!
The Irakians need her own moslemdemocrazy - the Americans failed, too they don't live in peace there!
The next error is standing in the door!
Saudiarabia? once more the Iran? Israel? Venezuela? California?
13 steps away from peace:
Only if America will change the design from the billets of dollar peace will come over the world!
The pyramid never will accept peace,freedom and welfare for everybody!
Great movie, I hope it will open the eyes of at least a small amount of the brainwashed americans.
You should stick to your own rules and not delve into politics.
I will do.
Personally I think you should do whatever the hell you want Ilker. This post obviously got us all thinking. Isn't that the point of your blog? :)
Yes I know and you are right. However, when I started blogging I did make some "rules" for myself to keep this site "tidy" and still get people "thinking" on topics other than religion and politics.
Well, it's perfectly okay to break that rule sometimes. I'm not saying to start doing lots of stuff on politics (I'd prefer you didn't), but every once in a while a little political controversy can't hurt. I liked this particular post, not because I'm a political person, but because it actually made me think. Sure, it started a debate, but I see that as a good thing. It got people to think about the issue, regardless of whether they are right or wrong.
Besides, you have me thinking about all sorts of others stuff too. So, it's sort of an even mixture of things.
well, this is the first blog i looked at on your site, because from the title i could see that you were breaking your own rules, even though i didn't know what the rules were, and i thought that this one might be important to read, you know, in case i die in the next millisecond and can't read anything else.
and i am glad you broke your rules. there are times when creatures of influence both great and small must speak their minds and the thoughts they have, or the ability to do so will disappear.
What do you think? Post your thoughts..